[Gprap]

To anyone who has installed these on an X model: Is it necessary to install the steering stops? What if they are not installed? Under nornal riding conditions, are they necessary, and if so, do they effect the turning radius of the machine? Any experience with this that you can give me will help. Thanks in advance.

 

[BCS-Extreme]

I initially installed the steering stops when I added the forward a arms. They did affect turning radius a small amount so I took them out. I have been riding the past 6 months without the stops with absolutely no issues to axles, bushings, ball joints, etc. I am also fairly hard on my machine as I mostly mud ride. I can also say I installed the forward a arms on my brother in laws X4 and the steering stops affected the turning radius quite a bit more. We took the stops out of the X4 as well with no ill affects.

 

[Gprap]

View attachment 2595
I initially installed the steering stops when I added the forward a arms. They did affect turning radius a small amount so I took them out. I have been riding the past 6 months without the stops with absolutely no issues to axles, bushings, ball joints, etc. I am also fairly hard on my machine as I mostly mud ride. I can also say I installed the forward a arms on my brother in laws X4 and the steering stops affected the turning radius quite a bit more. We took the stops out of the X4 as well with no ill affects.

Thank you for your quick reply. I appreciate it. I'll leave them out and can always put them in if I feel the necessity to do so.

 

[SuperATV]

We always recommend them (officially) to prevent oversteering and possibly binding up a stock axle at full drop and full turn. You can probably get away without them in most situations, but it is possible to put the axle in a bind. If you have aftermarket axles like our 2.0s with big ol' CV's and more angle, I wouldn't really worry about it at all. So...its a possibility you can bind up, but unlikely. We include them to protect our butts just in case.

 

[Gprap]

Thanks for clearing it up for me. Nothing better than hearing it from the horse’s mouth, so to speak. Good timing. I’m installing the A Arms tomorrow morning.

 

[PaulF]

We always recommend them (officially) to prevent oversteering and possibly binding up a stock axle at full drop and full turn. You can probably get away without them in most situations, but it is possible to put the axle in a bind. If you have aftermarket axles like our 2.0s with big ol' CV's and more angle, I wouldn't really worry about it at all. So...its a possibility you can bind up, but unlikely. We include them to protect our butts just in case.

The biggest problem I have observed is that some Talon's steering rack (not the steering wheel) is not centered upon delivery and/or the toe is not set correctly. What I have seen many times is the rack is off center and the steering wheel is installed straight/wrong to compensate. This causes the machine to turn sharper in one direction. And if it is toed out, it makes matters worse. Not sure if that is a factory or dealer mistake but it is ultimately up to the dealer to get it right. My R was delivered toed out AND the rack off center turning much sharper to the left than the right but I have seen both ways.

They do build in a little tolerance/leeway in case the front geometry is off due to rack center, toe, bent parts, etc. but the front CV's on the Talon are only a few degrees away from binding so when the rack is off center and/or toed out, the CV on one side can be very close to its bind limit and adding forward swept A-Arms pushes it over it's limit. Thus by installing the stops, you put the CV angles where they were before installing the A-Arms and maintain the initial factory tolerance/leeway. Are the stops needed? Yes and no, depending on how good you are at maintaining (namely aligning) your machine.

That said, if your rack is perfectly centered, toe set to zero, the frame and suspension are not "bent" and everything is perfect, there is enough leeway left in CV angle to play with and the stops are not needed with the forward swept A-Arms. However, IF anything goes out of whack, you may bind the CV and/or see early CV failure.

 

[Gprap]

The biggest problem I have observed is that some Talon's steering rack (not the steering wheel) is not centered upon delivery and/or the toe is not set correctly. What I have seen many times is the rack is off center and the steering wheel is installed straight/wrong to compensate. This causes the machine to turn sharper in one direction. And if it is toed out, it makes matters worse. Not sure if that is a factory or dealer mistake but it is ultimately up to the dealer to get it right. My R was delivered toed out AND the rack off center turning much sharper to the left than the right but I have seen both ways.

They do build in a little tolerance/leeway in case the front geometry is off due to rack center, toe, bent parts, etc. but the front CV's on the Talon are only a few degrees away from binding so when the rack is off center and/or toed out, the CV on one side can be very close to its bind limit and adding forward swept A-Arms pushes it over it's limit. Thus by installing the stops, you put the CV angles where they were before installing the A-Arms and maintain the initial factory tolerance/leeway. Are the stops needed? Yes and no, depending on how good you are at maintaining (namely aligning) your machine.

That said, if your rack is perfectly centered, toe set to zero, the frame and suspension are not "bent" and everything is perfect, there is enough leeway left in CV angle to play with and the stops are not needed with the forward swept A-Arms. However, IF anything goes out of whack, you may bind the CV and/or see early CV failure.

Makes complete sense. I’ll check mine before installing the a arms !!

 

[PaulF]

Here is a quick and dirty way to check (and center if needed) your steering rack...

2021 talon X4 steering rack centered.

How do I get the steering rack centered so I can align correctly. Feels like my 2021 X4 turns sharper left then right and also rubs on left side?thx

hondasxs.com

 

[SuperATV]

The biggest problem I have observed is that some Talon's steering rack (not the steering wheel) is not centered upon delivery and/or the toe is not set correctly. What I have seen many times is the rack is off center and the steering wheel is installed straight/wrong to compensate. This causes the machine to turn sharper in one direction. And if it is toed out, it makes matters worse. Not sure if that is a factory or dealer mistake but it is ultimately up to the dealer to get it right. My R was delivered toed out AND the rack off center turning much sharper to the left than the right but I have seen both ways.

They do build in a little tolerance/leeway in case the front geometry is off due to rack center, toe, bent parts, etc. but the front CV's on the Talon are only a few degrees away from binding so when the rack is off center and/or toed out, the CV on one side can be very close to its bind limit and adding forward swept A-Arms pushes it over it's limit. Thus by installing the stops, you put the CV angles where they were before installing the A-Arms and maintain the initial factory tolerance/leeway. Are the stops needed? Yes and no, depending on how good you are at maintaining (namely aligning) your machine.

That said, if your rack is perfectly centered, toe set to zero, the frame and suspension are not "bent" and everything is perfect, there is enough leeway left in CV angle to play with and the stops are not needed with the forward swept A-Arms. However, IF anything goes out of whack, you may bind the CV and/or see early CV failure.

That's very true...and that sucks. Its sloppy. That should be a simple catch and easy fix for the dealers.

@Gprap If you're not running the stops, make sure to test for axle binding at full drop and full turn in both directions. If the tire spins freely at full drop and full turn in both directions, you "SHOULD" be ok. That could change if the suspension unloads really hard. And like you mentioned...the rack being off...that's a whole other problem variable.

 

[Gprap]

That's very true...and that sucks. Its sloppy. That should be a simple catch and easy fix for the dealers.

@Gprap If you're not running the stops, make sure to test for axle binding at full drop and full turn in both directions. If the tire spins freely at full drop and full turn in both directions, you "SHOULD" be ok. That could change if the suspension unloads really hard. And like you mentioned...the rack being off...that's a whole other problem variable.

Just finished installing the A arms and did not insert the stops. No problem with turning either way lock to lock. Thank you all for your help and opinions. I value all of them.

 

[terratrooper]

The biggest problem I have observed is that some Talon's steering rack (not the steering wheel) is not centered upon delivery and/or the toe is not set correctly. What I have seen many times is the rack is off center and the steering wheel is installed straight/wrong to compensate. This causes the machine to turn sharper in one direction. And if it is toed out, it makes matters worse. Not sure if that is a factory or dealer mistake but it is ultimately up to the dealer to get it right. My R was delivered toed out AND the rack off center turning much sharper to the left than the right but I have seen both ways.

They do build in a little tolerance/leeway in case the front geometry is off due to rack center, toe, bent parts, etc. but the front CV's on the Talon are only a few degrees away from binding so when the rack is off center and/or toed out, the CV on one side can be very close to its bind limit and adding forward swept A-Arms pushes it over it's limit. Thus by installing the stops, you put the CV angles where they were before installing the A-Arms and maintain the initial factory tolerance/leeway. Are the stops needed? Yes and no, depending on how good you are at maintaining (namely aligning) your machine.

That said, if your rack is perfectly centered, toe set to zero, the frame and suspension are not "bent" and everything is perfect, there is enough leeway left in CV angle to play with and the stops are not needed with the forward swept A-Arms. However, IF anything goes out of whack, you may bind the CV and/or see early CV failure.

PaulF, you seem to have good knowledge of the steering setup. I've never had an issue with the "rack centering" but I will be checking it. I'd like to check my toe. I've hear that some on road alignment shops will very slightly toe a car in. What are your talon recommendations? Thanks.

 

[PaulF]

PaulF, you seem to have good knowledge of the steering setup. I've never had an issue with the "rack centering" but I will be checking it. I'd like to check my toe. I've hear that some on road alignment shops will very slightly toe a car in. What are your talon recommendations? Thanks.

Factory spec is zero and that is what seems to work the best for most.

 

[jmekeel]

After installing the the new A-Arms with the 1.5" offset, have you noticed if the machine rides a little better or handles jumps better. I know most install them for extra room for larger tires, Im looking to improve overall handling especially when going over a jump/bump, this thing nose dives pretty fast. Yes, I have been working with the suspension to try to help this issue out, really not doing much. Length is the only thing that can really tame this machine.

 

[Gprap]

After installing the the new A-Arms with the 1.5" offset, have you noticed if the machine rides a little better or handles jumps better. I know most install them for extra room for larger tires, Im looking to improve overall handling especially when going over a jump/bump, this thing nose dives pretty fast. Yes, I have been working with the suspension to try to help this issue out, really not doing much. Length is the only thing that can really tame this machine.

As far as jumping, I cannot say. That is not what I do with my Talon. I live in rough terrain and use it for going through and over that. If wheelbase is what you’re looking for, this, as you know, ads 1 1/2” to that. I can tell you that it turns better and does my 32” tires to work lock to lock without rubbing, which allows a better turning radius. Sorry for not being able to answer your question that is your main concern.

 

[PaulF]

After installing the the new A-Arms with the 1.5" offset, have you noticed if the machine rides a little better or handles jumps better. I know most install them for extra room for larger tires, Im looking to improve overall handling especially when going over a jump/bump, this thing nose dives pretty fast. Yes, I have been working with the suspension to try to help this issue out, really not doing much. Length is the only thing that can really tame this machine.

It is not the front that is the problem. The rear geometry on the Talon is not good for jumping and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. Fiddling with the shocks or springs will have minimal to no effect. Adding weight as far back as possible to change the center of gravity rearward is the only thing that helps at all. Moving the front wheels forward won't help much, the 4 seater is 20+ inches longer and jumps only marginally better than the 2 seater. The only (really expensive) fix for the X is to lengthen the trailing arms and mount them 6 to 12" forward. As far as I know, no one has tried that (yet). Changing the mount points of control arms in the rear of the R will also fix it but again, expensive and so far, no one that I know of has tried it.

Conversely, the rear suspension geometry is great for climbing and crawling. It forces the nose down under acceleration and helps you over obstacles to help reduce flip overs. Unfortunately, you can't have both worlds.

If you want to jump, you may want to try another brand. Talons just don't consistently jump good and never will. You will find that odd (perfect) jump. Then you will find one that is just plain crazy and causes a Talon to land nose up.

This is an almost stock R, my heavy machine jumped identical. This is a rare "nose up" landing (3 times)...

 

[jmekeel]

Thanks for that info