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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Nothing to do with steering? Then what do yo make of this?

 

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Nothing to do with steering? Then what do yo make of this?

That is a different link than the first one that you listed was about parking position in sub trans.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
That is a different link than the first one that you listed was about parking position in sub trans.
I quoted the link off the lawsuit site, but I see now that it says: "The ROV can move or roll when in the park position, posing crash and injury hazards". So, the lawsuit lawyers quoted the wrong recall. Out of curiosity, I am going to contact them and see what is the correct recall, if any. (For sure I don't want to join a class action suit, as all these do is make lawyers rich!)

If you search around the internet, there is an undercurrent of owners who have had steering problems in both Pioneers and Talons. Jsportsxs has an aftermarket steering rack. They prepped the Talons for the factory race team last year, and no doubt they learned that the stock unit can't be trusted. It is currently not Live Valve compatible, but they tell me that there will be one coming.
 

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My power steering has seemed extremely weak since day 1 but the dealer said it is normal. We have a 2020 X4LV with 32" tires. Maybe that's the problem?
 

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My power steering has seemed extremely weak since day 1 but the dealer said it is normal. We have a 2020 X4LV with 32" tires. Maybe that's the problem?
Honda designed the Talon for a specific tire size for many reasons. When a customer goes out of the design specification with modifications then there could be unfavorable results.
 

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The Talon was designed to handle 32" tires. From the beginning Jackson turbo was having a factory add-on tune for 28-in, 30-in, and 32-in tires. They would not have been designing a tune for 32-in tires and a turbo kit if the Talon wasn't set up for it. Been running 32s for about a thousand miles now....I Love it with 32" tires.
 

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Hometeam, do you notice that at low speed, say below 10mph when on high traction ground or pavement, that the power steering seems underpowered? That's where I notice it. The wheel will feel hard to turn and kind of jumpy.
 

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Hometeam, do you notice that at low speed, say below 10mph when on high traction ground or pavement, that the power steering seems underpowered? That's where I notice it. The wheel will feel hard to turn and kind of jumpy.
Now that you ask me like that.....I have had that happen on very rare occasions but only on pavement and very limited times. Almost like I wasn't sure it happened. It has not happened offroad for me. I guess I have not really thought of it as much of problem since its only on pavement. I wish it was perfect but I have seen lots of Polaris's where the power steering takes a hit and trips out and the machine has to be shut off to reset it to bring the PS back on. Not that that should be any excuse for Honda to not have a more powerful PS motor on it but most brands (not all) the steering (PS and rack) need to be upgraded to really be run hard! On the bright side I have not heard of a situation where the power steering stayed off on the Talon leaving someone without for the rest of the day. If it becomes more of an issue I will put a aftermarket PS in it and be done. The steering rack on my YXZ is a definitely a weak link....I have not considered the PS on my Talon a weak link yet, just wish it was perfect and I am unfortunately a perfectionist so yeah I wish it was not a thing at all!!:cool:
 

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Yeah, It's not really a "problem" for me. I usually only notice it when turning on or off of pavement at trail crossings or at my driveway. I never got to drive the Talon with stock tires so I don't know what it felt like then. I just wanted to make sure it was "normal". Thanks for your input!
 

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Yeah, It's not really a "problem" for me. I usually only notice it when turning on or off of pavement at trail crossings or at my driveway. I never got to drive the Talon with stock tires so I don't know what it felt like then. I just wanted to make sure it was "normal". Thanks for your input!
Yeah normal as in it probably won't stop working all together but not normal in all they needed to do is put a more powerful one in from the start!:unsure::LOL: Everything just keeps going on this Talon for me though!!
 

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Yeah, It's not really a "problem" for me. I usually only notice it when turning on or off of pavement at trail crossings or at my driveway. I never got to drive the Talon with stock tires so I don't know what it felt like then. I just wanted to make sure it was "normal". Thanks for your input!
Yeah normal as in it probably won't stop working all together but not normal in all they needed to do is put a more powerful one in from the start!:unsure::LOL: Everything just keeps going this Talon for me though!!
It is "Normal" because that is the way the EPS is programmed. It senses excessive heat by monitoring amperage draw and backs off the PS to protect the motor, wiring and the EPS-ECU. This is why it comes and goes. It is however, way too overly sensitive in my opinion. I think Honda should reprogram the EPS-ECU but then it might burn something up and leave you without PS. Here is the explanation directly from the service manual...

RESTRICTION ON POWER ASSIST OPERATION
Repeated extreme steering force, such as turning the steering wheel continuously left and right with the vehicle stopped, causes an increase of power consumption in the EPS motor. The increase of electric current causes the motor to heat up. Because this heat adversely affects the system, the EPS ECU monitors the electric current of the motor. When the EPS ECU detects heat build-up in the motor, it reduces the electric current to the motor gradually to protect the system (motor and EPS ECU), this restricts the power assist operation. The EPS indicator does not come on during this function. When steering torque is not applied to the steering wheel, or when the ignition is turned off, and the system cools, the EPS ECU will gradually restore the power assist.


Mine does it once in a while and I have just learned how to work around it. I had mine shut down completely once while doing some goofing around and excessive steering on a very hot day. I thought it was toast but it came back in a couple minutes and has never done that again.
 

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It is "Normal" because that is the way the EPS is programmed. It senses excessive heat by monitoring amperage draw and backs off the PS to protect the motor, wiring and the EPS-ECU. This is why it comes and goes. It is however, way too overly sensitive in my opinion. I think Honda should reprogram the EPS-ECU but then it might burn something up and leave you without PS. Here is the explanation directly from the service manual...

RESTRICTION ON POWER ASSIST OPERATION
Repeated extreme steering force, such as turning the steering wheel continuously left and right with the vehicle stopped, causes an increase of power consumption in the EPS motor. The increase of electric current causes the motor to heat up. Because this heat adversely affects the system, the EPS ECU monitors the electric current of the motor. When the EPS ECU detects heat build-up in the motor, it reduces the electric current to the motor gradually to protect the system (motor and EPS ECU), this restricts the power assist operation. The EPS indicator does not come on during this function. When steering torque is not applied to the steering wheel, or when the ignition is turned off, and the system cools, the EPS ECU will gradually restore the power assist.


Mine does it once in a while and I have just learned how to work around it. I had mine shut down completely once while doing some goofing around and excessive steering on a very hot day. I thought it was toast but it came back in a couple minutes and has never done that again.
Paul do you think that in extreme traction areas like on pavement that the power steering could be minimally fighting itself, like from alignments being off or the tires fighting left to right a little bit, going down the road. The reason I ask that is the one time that it stands out that mine did it, I was driving straight down the road with no turns for a mile or so And then went to turn into my drive and the first turn was hard and then it powered through. Trying to figure out if there is an odd reason for it happening. I use my steering off road non-stop and have never experienced it but going straight down the pavement and then turning I experienced it.
 

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I have had binding in my steering,
But only in hard turns when the suspension was loaded in the sand/dirt,
Like if you come into a corner to hot and put on the brakes and turn ,
It feels like the steering is locked straight and you have to convince it to turn,
It only started doing it intermittently the last few hundred mile - I have about 2800 miles on it now none live valve 2 seater 2020x
I had the dealer look at it but they said there wasn’t any codes stored In The computer for the steering but there was a ground fault, and didn’t find anything wrong with it,
They cleaned the contacts and the chassis ground and made a note of it ,
I hope it was the ground but haven’t been able to ride it aggressively to see if it still does it yet
 

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Paul do you think that in extreme traction areas like on pavement that the power steering could be minimally fighting itself, like from alignments being off or the tires fighting left to right a little bit, going down the road. The reason I ask that is the one time that it stands out that mine did it, I was driving straight down the road with no turns for a mile or so And then went to turn into my drive and the first turn was hard and then it powered through. Trying to figure out if there is an odd reason for it happening. I use my steering off road non-stop and have never experienced it but going straight down the pavement and then turning I experienced it.
I think it depends on the tires, surface and traction. I have some TerraBites and the are very square tread, pretty sticky and I normally run them 10 lbs or less. I can tell you that on pavement, I often lose my PS when going very slow or stopped and trying to turn. If I am stopped with both tires are on pavement or concrete and I have my foot on the brake, forget about turning the wheel until I release to brakes. I am just so used to it I have learned to give a little throttle when needed to get rolling. My previous machine (Yamaha Rhino with aftermarket PS) had similar quirks but not as bad as the Talon. Just something that you have to learn to deal with.
 

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I think it depends on the tires, surface and traction. I have some TerraBites and the are very square tread, pretty sticky and I normally run them 10 lbs or less. I can tell you that on pavement, I often lose my PS when going very slow or stopped and trying to turn. If I am stopped with both tires are on pavement or concrete and I have my foot on the brake, forget about turning the wheel until I release to brakes. I am just so used to it I have learned to give a little throttle when needed to get rolling. My previous machine (Yamaha Rhino with aftermarket PS) had similar quirks but not as bad as the Talon. Just something that you have to learn to deal with.
So I have been doing some thinking on this and using my electrical background as I think through it. So I am a part owner of an Electrical Contracting business that does a lot of industrial wiring with PLC controls and what not, including currently working on the new manufacturing plant for Rivian Battery truck/SUV and vans for the Amazon fleet. I am saying all that just to clarify my thoughts. I think this issue is 2 separate safety shutoffs in the equation (maybe Paul can shed some light from the shop manual side of this). I believe that the issue Paul is describing when he was out playing around and overheated his power steering for a few minutes before it came down in temp and came back on-line. And the other situation is when we are driving fine and go to turn on pavement or high traction areas and the PS kicks out for a second then comes back on line. In the first situation Paul is actually overheating the PS motor and that will stay off till the heat gets back in range and that sensor is on the motor it self. The next situation which is intermittent PS failure is due to more of an overcurrent draw issue in my mind. This could more than one possible cause for this situation.....one reason could be that when we are on pavement and trying to turn with the extra traction the current spikes past the parameters set by the controller and then after that current drops and then the PS comes back on-line and it works from there because the initial turn is past the spike. Yes overcurrent causes heat and they are saying that but in this instance a spike does not have enough time to cause enough heat build up to do what Paul had happen in his situation. That's why a breaker can be pushed past its stated amp draw (startup) for a short period of time before it trips. Start up current is always high and then drops so if that delay in reaction to the spike is not figured into the safety parameters in the controller then it will kick out for a short time when there really is not an issue. The other thing that could be causing the spike is if the system ground is not as good as should be then the when the PS motor goes to full amp load (as on pavement), if the return path is not good (loose ground or paint covering the connection) then the current draw will spike above its normal operation draw to over come the weak ground and cause an intermittent shut down of the PS.
These are just thoughts.... I know that in certain instances the AC power and DC power are different in how they work but theory is a lot of the same. Paul curious your feedback as I am brainstorming here! Thanks.
 

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So I have been doing some thinking on this and using my electrical background as I think through it. So I am a part owner of an Electrical Contracting business that does a lot of industrial wiring with PLC controls and what not, including currently working on the new manufacturing plant for Rivian Battery truck/SUV and vans for the Amazon fleet. I am saying all that just to clarify my thoughts. I think this issue is 2 separate safety shutoffs in the equation (maybe Paul can shed some light from the shop manual side of this). I believe that the issue Paul is describing when he was out playing around and overheated his power steering for a few minutes before it came down in temp and came back on-line. And the other situation is when we are driving fine and go to turn on pavement or high traction areas and the PS kicks out for a second then comes back on line. In the first situation Paul is actually overheating the PS pump and that will stay off till the heat gets back in range and that sensor is on the pump it self. The next situation which is intermittent PS failure is due to more of an overcurrent draw issue in my mind. This could more than one possible cause for this situation.....one reason could be that when we are on pavement and trying to turn with the extra traction the current spikes past the parameters set by the controller and then after that current drops and then the PS comes back on-line and it works from there because the initial turn is past the spike. Yes overcurrent causes heat and they are saying that but in this instance a spike does not have enough time to cause enough heat build up to do what Paul had happen in his situation. That's why a breaker can be pushed past its stated amp draw (startup) for a short period of time before it trips. Start up current is always high and then drops so if that delay in reaction to the spike is not figured into the safety parameters in the controller then it will kick out for a short time when there really is not an issue. The other thing that could be causing the spike is if the system ground is not as good as should be then the when the PS motor goes to full amp load (as on pavement), if the return path is not good (loose ground or paint covering the connection) then the current draw will spike above its normal operation draw to over come the weak ground and cause an intermittent shut down of the PS.
These are just thoughts.... I know that in certain instances the AC power and DC power are different in how they work but theory is a lot of the same. Paul curious your feedback as I am brainstorming here! Thanks.
You are somewhat correct. There is no temp sensor on the Motor so the EPS ECU basically "guesses" when the EPS Motor is overheated by monitoring the steering wheel torque and current draw and reduces or even kills the power to the Motor (kind of a limp mode) until it "guesses" again that it has cooled down or out of a bound state. I believe that there is some sort of maximum amperage threshold that the ECU kills the power to protect the entire system. For instance, if you hold the wheel all the way left or right and the torque applied and/or current are over a threshold, it will kill the power to the motor.

After pondering about this a bit, I think the issue most experience is the ECU killing the PS when it senses too much torque applied to the steering wheel. Bigger/wider/stickier tires require more torque and the ECU thinks the driver has either blocked the front tires from turning or has hit the steering stop. Personally, I think the ECU is overly sensitive and is being fooled by the increased friction and prematurely killing the PS.

There may also be an issue with the wire size/length from the ECU to the Motor that is contributing. It appears to be 12 gauge (maybe 10) and is about 15 feet round trip from the ECU to the PS Motor and the ECU is on a 40 amp fuse. Not that the motor draws 40 amps (fuses in 12 volt systems are generally sized at 125%) but for that amp/distance, a 6 gauge wire should be used to maintain a 2% drop. At 2% drop, 12 gauge wire in only good for 11 amps and 10 gauge is only good for 18 amps. 12 gauge is allowed but produces a whopping 10% voltage drop. Doing the math, that means when the motor is drawing 20 amps, the ECU sees more like 23.

Too small of a wire will cause more amperage draw than the motor is actually pulling so my theory is that the undersized wire has too much resistance, causing the current to peak and is "tricking" the ECU into thinking that the Motor is being overworked or overheating when in fact it is not. This "tricking" of the ECU may be causing the PS to go into "limp" mode when it shouldn't.

A couple ways to find out is to either...
-Change all the power wires (including from the fuse and ground to the ECU) to 6 gauge. OR...
-Move the ECU right next to Motor, stretch the small control wires and use the Winch wires for power.
This may prove the wiring is too small or disprove it, I am not willing to go to that much work to find out. Possibly some Amp testing at the battery vs the motor will reveal any loss in the wiring.

If someone can rule out the wiring, then it would only reason that the torque sensor and/or the ECU are just overly sensitive and nothing we can do about that without reprogramming the EPS ECU. I looked at my PV3 and although DynoJet has added many nodes, PS is not one of them (yet???) so there is no way for me to even take a look.

I sent DynoJet an email to see if they are interested in cracking the EPS ECU. I doubt they will but it was worth a try.
 

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I sent DynoJet an email to see if they are interested in cracking the EPS ECU. I doubt they will but it was worth a try.
DynoJet responded. The PV3 connects to the PCU and talks to other modules (like i4WD) through the high speed CAN Bus link allowing for a path to tune some of the connected modules.

However, the link from the PCU to the EPS ECU is only a slow speed K-Line Bus used to trade simple data to the PCU (like trouble codes) and cannot be used to access, read or tune the EPS.

Bummer!!!
 
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