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Discussion Starter #1
I’m trying to help a friend with a Talon X to help the harsh ride without a lot of $$. Another friend took a guess and replaced the rear upper springs with an 8” long spring with 170 lbs/inch spring rate. It did wonders! But it was just a guess and he did not get the crossover rings my Talon R has. I see they’re available from a number of sources now.

Three questions: 1) Has anyone been able to get actual X model (and R) spring rates from Fox? The part numbers on the springs don’t match the Fox numbering system.

2) Has anyone bought springs on the open market rather than manufactured kits? What length and spring rate? Buying a spring set to me is a guess - you have no idea what the spring rates and lengths are compared to stock.

3) I'm looking to get longer upper springs on my R for softer ride. Anyone with experience on that?
 

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AZChuck,

No to all your questions...lol.

Hi - purchased 4 tender springs for my X from Bandit before I even put a mile on my machine as the stock tender springs were collapsed from the showroom floor.

Some utube videos out there as well on product. Everything posted is softer ride.

Springs were longer and stiffer - gained 1” plus ground clearance. Good stuff.

Nothing to compare to but ride is ok with this setup - suspension is what it is - sharp one off rocks are horrible - feels like a piece of solid pipe between trailing arm and frame ?. Plush on everything else.
East Coast - Rocks, mud and tight trails.
 

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I have been down this road with my X. First I bought shock therapy spring kit. Only a slight improvement.... definitely not $650 worth. My thoughts were that the tender spring on the rear was too stiff. Bought another rear tender spring for the rear and was going to have a local suspension guy install it. He told me shock therapy gives you whatever they have available on the shelf. He changed the tender spring to what he recommended for the rear. Also he re-valved the rear shock. When he took the springs off the shock. he couldn't even move the shock! The shock valving is the main problem. Springs are too just not as much. Anyway.... $1200 later I now have a good ride, the way it should have been from the dealer. Thanks Honda and Fox.............
 

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who did your revalve?


I saw some really good reviews on the Bandit springs without the crossover rings and for $200 for all 4, I figured I could not go wrong. ?.

I’m no shock expert and didn’t want to spend a bunch of $$’ and wanted to let the market get some solid solutions in place.

im just a weekend trail rider, so I just plan to get a revalve and all new springs at some point

It’s like any dirt bike I have had - $300 on the shock and $300 on the forks -to get descent — so I am figuring $300 or so per corner.

?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I’m thinking the magic is in the crossover rings. Both springs are in series which essentially halves the spring rate ( if the springs are equal). When the Shock moves far enough, the crossover ring locks out the upper spring. On the X, the upper spring is nearly coilbound at the start and there is no crossover ring.

I got the spring rates for my R yesterday. My buddy is going to find the spring part numbers today. I’m hopeful of getting spring rates for his.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The reason the shocks are so stiff even with the springs off has nothing to do with the valving. Fox told me their shocks typically have 100-150 psi gas pressure in them. This is to help keep the oil inside from foaming under hard use. 150 psi against the area of the piston is a lot.
 

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After everything I went through I would say that the re-valve is 80% of the problem and 20% springs. I can only say this about the X. I don't have a R.
 

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who did your revalve?


I saw some really good reviews on the Bandit springs without the crossover rings and for $200 for all 4, I figured I could not go wrong. ?.

I’m no shock expert and didn’t want to spend a bunch of $$’ and wanted to let the market get some solid solutions in place.

im just a weekend trail rider, so I just plan to get a revalve and all new springs at some point

It’s like any dirt bike I have had - $300 on the shock and $300 on the forks -to get descent — so I am figuring $300 or so per corner.

?
Fineline suspension located in St. George, UT
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Fineline suspension located in St. George, UT
I was lucky enough to get the following info from a very credible source who asked I not post their name. This table is for a 1000X.
LocationP/NFree LengthInside DiameterSpring Rate
Front Upper039-00-441-16.4”2.5”275
Front Lower039-00-443-111.752.5”300
Rear Upper039-00-442-13.0652.5”400
Rear Lower039-00-444-115.72.5”350

This table is for a 1000R.
LocationP/NFree LengthInside DiameterSpring Rate
Front Upper039-00-451-85.9”3”350
Front Lower039-00-453-815.13”225
Rear Upper039-00-452-86.73”250
Rear Lower039-00-454-815.93”250
On the X, the combined spring rate until the upper spring is totally collapsed is 187 lbs/inch. When the upper spring collapses (very quickly with only a 3" length), the 350 lb/inch rate of the lower spring is what you have. Seriously stiff!!

On the R, the combined spring rate is 125 lbs/inch, 2/3 that of the X. When you finally collapse the upper spring (if the shock travels that far), the 250 lb/inch rate of the lower spring is what you have, again about 2/3 of the X. And that occurs after a much greater wheel travel.

I was looking at buying a new upper spring for my friend with the X, but it has a much smaller wheel travel since it is at least half compressed sitting still. Now I'm thinking replace the lower spring with 250 lb/inch like my R. The lowest price source for this spring is from LandrumSpring.com for $39 on sale. The springs are Chrome Silicon like everyone else. The only negative is that the longest length I can get is 14".

My problem with buying the spring kits from ST, Bandit and others is that you don't know the new spring length or the spring rate which is what you're trying to correct, kind of a blind date. Obviously they don't want to tell you, else you'd do what I'm doing!:rolleyes:

With the above info, at least you can make a more informed decision if you go the way I'm planning.

Good Luck!!
 

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I was lucky enough to get the following info from a very credible source who asked I not post their name. This table is for a 1000X.
LocationP/NFree LengthInside DiameterSpring Rate
Front Upper039-00-441-16.4”2.5”275
Front Lower039-00-443-111.752.5”300
Rear Upper039-00-442-13.0652.5”400
Rear Lower039-00-444-115.72.5”350

This table is for a 1000R.
LocationP/NFree LengthInside DiameterSpring Rate
Front Upper039-00-451-85.9”3”350
Front Lower039-00-453-815.13”225
Rear Upper039-00-452-86.73”250
Rear Lower039-00-454-815.93”250
On the X, the combined spring rate until the upper spring is totally collapsed is 187 lbs/inch. When the upper spring collapses (very quickly with only a 3" length), the 350 lb/inch rate of the lower spring is what you have. Seriously stiff!!

On the R, the combined spring rate is 125 lbs/inch, 2/3 that of the X. When you finally collapse the upper spring (if the shock travels that far), the 250 lb/inch rate of the lower spring is what you have, again about 2/3 of the X. And that occurs after a much greater wheel travel.

I was looking at buying a new upper spring for my friend with the X, but it has a much smaller wheel travel since it is at least half compressed sitting still. Now I'm thinking replace the lower spring with 250 lb/inch like my R. The lowest price source for this spring is from LandrumSpring.com for $39 on sale. The springs are Chrome Silicon like everyone else. The only negative is that the longest length I can get is 14".

My problem with buying the spring kits from ST, Bandit and others is that you don't know the new spring length or the spring rate which is what you're trying to correct, kind of a blind date. Obviously they don't want to tell you, else you'd do what I'm doing!:rolleyes:

With the above info, at least you can make a more informed decision if you go the way I'm planning.

Good Luck!!
Did you every pick a spring setup for your friend, I am trying to figure out what to get for my parents talon x. They want a plusher ride, and dont ride hard, they just want to cruise and be as comfortable as possible. I have been debating between an inch or two taller upper spring with stock spring rate, or do I keep stock spring height and bump up spring rate.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Re my friend with the Talon X, he has done nothing yet. He is pretty much locked in on the Bandit Tender Springs, in spite of what I think are pretty neutral reviews on the forum. I indicated adding the 4-5" long Bandit Tender springs still left him with a really stiff lower spring which occupies about 15" of the total shock length of 23" with the wheels hanging. Given how stiff the lowers are, I'm guessing a large part of the preload compression will be on the Bandit springs, leaving little "soft" travel range.

I spent a day last week with another friend who also has a Talon X. He got the $1600 treatment from Shock Therapy with all new springs and valve rework. He said he bottomed out on things that no one else did. When he wrote the check, Shock Therapy asked him to describe his riding style, passenger weight, and cargo weight (which should have been enough). However, the location of the preload and crossover rings exactly matched what ST has on their YouTube video. Do they really tune the spring length and rates plus the shock valving to each machine? Also, ST makes a great claim that their springs don't sag like OEM. Then in the next breath, they say you MAY (must?) adjust the preload after riding 150 miles or so. Why doesn't ST take that into account on the initial adjustments?

Many people talk about ride height. I can't measure that very precisely, so I use how much the shock rod protrudes out of the body with the vehicle sitting, and with wheels off the ground. Anyway, when I looked at my friend's X, it was about 2" low in the rear. Measured my way, there was about 3" from the bottom of the shock body to the end of the spring. That translates into about 6" wheel travel out of a stated 15". With the shocks hanging, there is 8" from shock body to spring end. This says there was 5" of shock rod inside the body unable to be used when you hit a rock ledge, log, etc. So I added another 2" of preload. Then we went on a ride and he didn't bottom out once (nor did I in my 1000R).

Re some guidance on springs for your parents, I'm going to guess they've somewhat conservative (I'm, 75, but have no problem pinning the throttle now and then). So I'm thinking a relatively soft setup. Shock setting can make up somewhat.

I've never done this from scratch. I've replaced some springs from a starting baseline. Perhaps someone who has done this can weigh in. There are some really smart people on this forum!

First, get crossover rings so you can adjust the combined spring rate. Without them, you have a constant spring rate through the whole range of shock travel, even with two springs. ST added them to my friend's shocks. I've seen insane prices from ST and others up to $50. Come on, they're threaded aluminum rings that are made by the thousand! I've seen them for $7. Confirm they fit your shocks.

With dual springs, when they initially compress, the combined rate is half of the individual rate (if the two springs are the same rate). When the spring compression goes far enough that the spring divider (between the two springs) hits the crossover ring, the upper spring cannot compress anymore. From this point on, the spring rate is that of the lower spring by itself. Fox says my upper and lower spring rates are the same, 250 lbs/inch. And I'm happy with that, running on the softest shock setting (#1). I've put grease on the piston rod to see how far the shock travels. With the preload I have, it wipes off most, but not all of the grease, with the crossover rings set to limit about the last 1" of travel.

A number of places say that the top spring is normally about 20% shorter than the lower. That matches the ST setup almost exactly. With the shocks hanging free, my friend's springs are 8" on top and 11 1/4" on bottom.

The best deal on springs I've found is LandrumSprings. Their Gold springs for your 2.5" diameter shocks are $39 for an assortment of spring rates and lengths. There may be better deals around. Barring further discovery, you could do a 10" and 8", or two 10" with 250 lb/inch.

I don't have a spring compressor so used two ratchet straps as shown on YouTube. This worked great with my wife while doing our own springs. Doing this with my friend showed you need to be careful not to let the straps slip and overlap. When you try to release, they don't! I bought straps from Harbor Freight that have a two finger type end, rather than a hook. This lets you get into the space between the upper coils and the shock body.

In a perfect case, you might find someone on the forum that has already experimented and might have some springs you could try. If you'd like to chat, PM me.
 

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The reason the shocks are so stiff even with the springs off has nothing to do with the valving. Fox told me their shocks typically have 100-150 psi gas pressure in them. This is to help keep the oil inside from foaming under hard use. 150 psi against the area of the piston is a lot.




100 -150 PSI huh..............- guess mine leaked out! UGH~~~
873
 

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Um - well.....good question.................but...............I'm gonna call a couple of suspension shops tomorrow - n hopefully I'll know then - but more n likely they will need rebuilt/revalved and re-sprung as the stock sprimgs suck and the oil will be refilled - UGH................. - but......I may go with different brand or set up if thats the case as FOX won't get my business with a crummy product/s ike this!
Sad that you pay this much for a machine then have to correct expensive issues such as this!

If I had to do it over I'd seriously reconsider getting a Talon after owning one of them for this short period of time - maybe a future model will have better components.
 
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